Europe’s Probable Fall


 

Europe's Titanic ego problem - May 10, 2010, at 06.27 PM (Cartoonist-Cam Cardow, copyright 2010 Cagle Cartoons; courtesy - theweek.com.). Click for larger image.

Europe's Titanic ego problem - May 10, 2010, at 06.27 PM (Cartoonist-Cam Cardow, copyright 2010 Cagle Cartoons; courtesy - caglecartoons.com.). Click for larger image.

The success of Europe is considerable, but must not be exaggerated. There are still problems, including poverty to cite only one example, several million children in the UK suffer from malnutrition. While Europe has succeeded in attracting new members, it has not been successful in integrating its new immigrant populations. The European project is being tested by the lack of success of the Lisbon treaty.

The problem, however, is that while the peace will probably last another major European war is a very unlikely scenario the prosperity may not.

The choice is basically as follows. By accepting reform and the need for some sacrifices, the European fall will occur, but it will be reasonably gentle and gradual. By refusing to reform and rejecting sacrifice, Europe’s fall will be precipitate. At the moment, unfortunately, the more likely scenario is the second one. (read more via Europe’s Probable Fall – The Times of India).

A culture of entitlement has robbed European society of its vitality. The writer feels that Europe can choose how it will decline. Gradually and gently. Otherwise, precipitate – sudden, visible, maybe violent. I am being gentle by call it decline. Lehman says it is fall. No less.

Cartoon from timeesofindia.com). Publication date - 16th November 2010.

Cartoon from timeesofindia.com). Publication date - 16th November 2010.

Probably, many in India and the Indians abroad, the RNIs and the NRIs, brought up on the milk of Western superiority will mourn the passing away of their ‘dream’. I am sure they will quickly find some other ‘superior’ culture for loyalties.

The dream is dead. Long live the dream.

  1. A fan of your blog
    November 22, 2010 at 4:35 pm

    We (as in India) need a vibrant and well-off Europe, not for their superiority, but for our own products and services. We need them as a trading partner so that we can deliver them value and charge them for it. If the world economy keeps imploding, like it has been for 2 years now, we will be worse off.

    You keep calling population explosion a scam in a lot of your posts, but I have not seen an intelligent rebuttal to my posts on the topic of population. India needs trading partners like Europe and USA so that we can bring in wealth to feed the hungry mouths we have through unfettered copulation. Add to it the menace of corruption where trillions of dollars are siphoned off into Swiss accounts by our esteemed leaders, and we need more partners to trade with. Finding glee in others misery is not the way here.

  2. RamKumar
    November 23, 2010 at 1:05 am

    My question again, what if the european nations (mainly germany,france,britain) try to improve their economy by returning to their old means of slavery,piratism and colonialism, are other nations (mainly india , many asian , african ) nations prepared now to face them

  3. November 23, 2010 at 8:31 am

    I have not seen an intelligent rebuttal to my posts on the topic of population

    I am surprised why you need an intelligent rebuttal at all. There cannot be an intelligent rebuttal to ‘murder is good’ statement!

    How can people be a problem, burden, liability, baggage, disadvantage, drag, drawback, encumbrance, handicap, hindrance, impediment, inconvenience, millstone, nuisance?

    People are the very basis of production, wealth, prosperity, well being, development! It is the usual Western ideological duplicity where in a Welfare State, that people become a burden

  4. November 23, 2010 at 8:37 am

    Ram – Like I mentioned in my previous reply to your question, there are some necessary preconditions for doing what the Europeans did at that time. Those conditions do not exist any more. I am giving below my earlier reply.

    Rich nations, with ageing populations and pretensions of civilization are bad candidates for the looter-conqueror model. It takes a young, barbaric, poor, desperate society (like the Greeks, Romans, Mongols, Europe etc.) to ‘achieve’ this.

  5. ramkumaran
    November 23, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    thanks, sorry i got lost to see your earlier reply

  6. samadhyayi
    November 24, 2010 at 5:52 am

    i am having to play chess on american servers. we invented the game. but we dont have chess servers. i want chess server. why dont u suggest your rich programmer friends to create a free chess server for india. we can link the server with international servers if we want to socialise with world people. but we shoudnt depend on them. some people are openly insulting india on that chess server. and i dont like it single bit. china has its own chess server and they dont even care to play the chess we play. they got their own chess with 10X10 board as against our 8X8 board. there are no chinese on american servers. but we indians are having to rely on american servers. and they think they are superior to us. give me a chess server now.

  7. A fan of your blog
    November 24, 2010 at 7:00 pm

    Anuraag Sanghi :

    I have not seen an intelligent rebuttal to my posts on the topic of population

    I am surprised why you need an intelligent rebuttal at all. There cannot be an intelligent rebuttal to ‘murder is good’ statement!

    Sorry, who is talking about murder? Population control can be by design as well, not by murder alone. Its time you got that point. You keep harping about murder. Who is advocating murder?

    How can people be a problem, burden, liability, baggage, disadvantage, drag, drawback, encumbrance, handicap, hindrance, impediment, inconvenience, millstone, nuisance?
    People are the very basis of production, wealth, prosperity, well being, development! It is the usual Western ideological duplicity where in a Welfare State, that people become a burden

    Yes, people can be basis of production, wealth, prosperity, well being, development. The same people can become a liability, baggage, disadvantage, drag, drawback, etc. etc. etc. I am not sure what is so difficult to understand about that. Just like any other “resource”, people can be both. To be all the nice things people need to be, they need to educated, cultured, civilized, productive, etc. etc. Else they can become a liability quickly. With half the people below poverty line with no access to water, food, education, etc. etc., how do we make them all the wonderful things we want and need them to be? With fewer people, those wonderful things can be accomplished more easily. Anyone with basic understanding of economics can grasp that argument. I am not sure what is so difficult here. Please enlighten me.

  8. manu
    November 28, 2010 at 1:21 am

    AFOB how do you plan to reduce population. Would it be forcefully sterilising people as tried by Sanjay gandhi… Or wiping out a certain section of people as done by hitler… Or just cant be bothered to marry and have kids as being done by western societies… Or only 1 child per person as tried by China

    Can you tell your friends.. relatives to not have kids…Enlighten us as to how do you plan to accomplish less population…. And what gives you the right to control/even debate how many people should be living in a country/state…. I hope you are not suffering form the same elitist mentality(of being the superior class that sets the rules for people) that Anurag has been telling us about….

  9. samadhyayi
    November 29, 2010 at 4:54 am

    it is simple. you dont control ur population. control some one else’s population. we dont like our own people. so we want to control our population.

    lets wipe out the africans. and fill them with white people. whyshould we have africans and indians. they are disgusting. asians too. there are too many of them. they can die. for us. so that we can have more space.

  10. November 30, 2010 at 8:13 am

    it is simple. you dont control ur population. control some one else’s population.

    One qualification. Desert Bloc – West of India are sterile, anti-marriage, anti-family societies. They are the one’s propagating social planning, population planning, family planning, population explosion, Eugenics, et al. East of India are societies which have used some Indian ideas – like family systems, stable family systems. These societies are productive, growing and are the targets of social planning, population planning, family planning, population explosion, Eugenics, et al by the West.

    lets wipe out the africans. and fill them with white people. why should we have africans and indians. they are disgusting. asians too. there are too many of them. they can die. for us. so that we can have more space.

    Rudely, crudely and simply put. This just about sums up Western attitudes.

  11. November 30, 2010 at 8:14 am

    Manu – Awesome.

    AFOYB – Can you see how simple this whole hoax is. Open your eyes – and ye shall see.

  12. A fan of your blog
    December 1, 2010 at 7:00 pm

    Guys,

    Your argument can be summarized thus:

    Doctor: You are very overweight for your own good. You need to cut down on weight so that you can lead a healthy lifestyle. Your heart is overloaded when pumping blood to all your organs and working overtime. In order to shed weight, please be aware of the number of calories you consume and start an exercise regimen.

    Patient: How do I reduce my weight? Are you going to cut off my hands and feet to bring it down? Also, how do I know what my ideal weight is? I have no idea. Also, so what if my heart has to work overtime? I don’t care about such things. Why don’t you tell all your other patients to lose weight first? You have no business telling me to lose weight. Given all these arguments, doctor, I am sure you can see you don’t know what you are talking about. So clearly your diagnosis is wrong.

  13. manu
    December 3, 2010 at 10:27 pm

    AFoYB problem is you see population as a disease (blatantly obvious from your reply) ….A Doctor has earned the right/skill to cure you / advise you on your health and he does it by your permission… Who plays doctor in the case of disease population ?….. Does being educated, economically well off and civilised in the modern(another name for western) sense makes you that doctor?
    Sir in spite of your arguments for population control you haven’t told us about the ways to achieve it….
    How we better provide for the population should be the question not how we reduce it…. and India does think along those lines… We still have nano’s being designed here not ferraris

  14. December 4, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    I think AFOYB, on this issue, I have written some 15 A4 pages of research. Exposing this fraud. What you are probably looking for is an argument. Instead, the solution maybe what someone wrote in 2ndlook comments. Sometimes, Buddha said, you have to be “appa deepo bhava“. Be your own light. For a few weeks, ‘assume’ that population explosion theory is all wrong.

    Then …

  15. A fan of your blog
    December 4, 2010 at 6:04 pm

    Hi Anuraag,

    I would love to read your 15 A4 pages of research on this topic. Please let me know how I can get access to it.

    Hi Manu,

    No I do not view population explosion as a disease. I was merely using an analogy to make my point. Since you ask for ways to achieve it, I will give you my thoughts:

    1. As you will see within India and abroad, as economies have developed, education levels have gone up and people have become more educated, they have produced less children per family. This is natural maturation of the family structure due to two main reasons: a) With education, one becomes more economically aware of one’s responsibilities to provide kids with a better education and lifestyle and b) One understands human biology better and has access to means of birth control.

    2. More people are better if we can manage to provide better education and/or vocational skills to the populace where they can become more productive. If not, then they become a burden on society. Please acknowledge this fact to take this one step further.

    3. We are caught in a chicken and egg situation. Till we educate our people, we cannot make them productive. And because of the growing population, we cannot have the resources to make them more productive.

    4. In such a situation, we have to employ some creative ideas to incentivize people to have smaller families. I am talking about incentives such that the benefits of smaller family far outweigh the disincentives. For example, certain elements of welfare are available to people who opt for tubal ligation and/or vasectomy after the birth of their second child. Those elements of welfare could be free education upto college level, food stamps and/or food rations available. Now I am sure you will object that the state has no business offering these services free at the cost of the exchequer. We are already doing all these things for the SC/ST and maha dalits on a massive scale. Rather than making these available on a caste basis, these can be made available on economic basis, where number of children is just another factor into the equation.

    5. While this would have been more effective 50 years ago, I think there is still a need to make some policy changes to rein in population.

    6. As we learnt from the whole Sanjay Gandhi episode, any kind of forced measures will only take us away from having effective policies. Murder is also not something I am advocating.

  16. Galeo Rhinus
    December 4, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    AFOYB

    Your basic premise of population control is a top down Asuric system… whether or not it is “better” or “worse” it goes against EVERYTHING Indic.

    You are free to praise those asuric polities and scream about their greatness until you are blue in your face… but – that will never ever make restricting individual freedom acceptable to the Indian ethos…

    …the same reason why India could never have Pyramids – Indians will never accept population control…

  17. A fan of your blog
    December 5, 2010 at 8:20 pm

    Anuraag,

    Again calling a system Asuric does not make it better or worse. If that’s your only argument, then there is no debate. If you can show using logic ( simple logic or convoluted) that controlling population is a bad idea, I am all ears. I agree that the state has no right to tell people how many kids to have and understand why. But just as the state makes laws against murder, the state also has a responsibility towards welfare of the people. Population control is one such issue. The whole concept of law is asuric in nature. Yet we do have laws and most people follow them.

    I know we keep going in circles on this topic. Time to put it to rest.

  18. manu
    December 6, 2010 at 9:54 am

    Ok why is population a problem… Coz we are poor and we are poor because of the large population…Lets take a 2ndlook at that…. Poor india a historical reality or historical aberration…. Past 200 years have been unprecedented in the world history…. Please google about historic world population here is one link (http://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2010/09/map-of-world-population-year-1ad-1500ad-and-2000ad-and-some-questions/) From 1 Ad to about 1800 India accounted for 20% of the world population and about 20-25% of world GDP(rough figures you can do your research http://www.ggdc.net/MADDISON/oriindex.htm) From 1800 till today the population % remained roughly the same (came down a bit to around 17%) but the gdp came down drastically…. Hence the poverty…. hence population seems the problem… Now the new age economists and historians will tell you that this fall in India’s GDP was due to superior technology of the west… None not one will say it was due to wealth from new found lands…. slave labour and squeezing of wealth from India and asia…. 60 years of independence the GDP has been rising steadily…. Wait a few more years and this population will be an asset if it already isn’t… Economies are about people not machines… Only thing to make sure when the wealth comes its not concentrated in the hands of the few but distributed among all…(as told by anuraag)… Uniform well planned cities of saraswati-sindhu civilisation not pyramids of egypt

  19. December 7, 2010 at 1:44 pm

    AFOYB – Manu by using two very simple pieces of data has demolished this entire population explosion theory!

    My three posts on Population –

    McNamara and His Two Wars

    The Hoax of Population Explosion

    The Problem of the Jewish Population

  20. samadhyayi
    December 7, 2010 at 2:44 pm

    arent u guys aware that in american universities people research onhow they can control our population. when mother theresa got nobel prize. u know what they were complaining about. in america. they were saying. oh no. she is against abortion. now those indians are going to have loads of babies.

  21. samadhyayi
    December 7, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    those idiots who want to educate(brainwash . make them inhuman) our people can go and jump in the indian ocean.

  22. Galeo Rhinus
    December 7, 2010 at 7:18 pm

    AFOYB wrote:

    ” the state also has a responsibility towards welfare of the people…”

    Really?

  23. A fan of your blog
    December 8, 2010 at 5:26 am

    Guys,

    The argument remains the same. Quantity is good only if it comes with quality. Otherwise, we are again in a downward spiral. The statistics show the same thing: GDP per capita is as important as GDP. One without the other remains meaningless. Now the challenge is to make all these people productive so that they are benefited at the individual level. We did a better job making our people productive till the 1800s. The argument of what western polities did since then is meaningless. Sure they found new lands and emnployed slaves. At the unit level, the population growth has hurt us. There are no two ways about it. Britain’s economy is in shambles. So is most of Europe’s. As an Indian, I don’t see why we should seek any pleasure with that. The “I told you so” does not do anything for us. We have a lot of work to do and a lot of people to pull out of poverty. And that task is more arduous because of our population. More people to educate and more people to make productive. Whether you believe in a desert bloc religions or have an asuric polity has nothing to do with it. Nor am I talking about killing people. All I am saying is that public policy should have addressed this issue and has failed to do so.

  24. A fan of your blog
    December 9, 2010 at 3:31 pm

    Galeo Rhinus :AFOYB
    Your basic premise of population control is a top down Asuric system… whether or not it is “better” or “worse” it goes against EVERYTHING Indic.
    You are free to praise those asuric polities and scream about their greatness until you are blue in your face… but – that will never ever make restricting individual freedom acceptable to the Indian ethos…
    …the same reason why India could never have Pyramids – Indians will never accept population control…

    India is already far from being an Indic polity. Sure, there are a few Indic elements, but they are few and far between.

  25. A fan of your blog
    December 9, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Galeo Rhinus :AFOYB wrote:
    ” the state also has a responsibility towards welfare of the people…”
    Really?

    If not, then what is the role of the state? Please educate.

  26. samadhyayi
    December 10, 2010 at 11:41 am

    the what kuality is afoyb talking abot. those who let others live deserve to live. those who want others to die deserve to die. indians never wanted others to die. we are 100 crores. if it was another country. it would have annexed neighbouring countries so that they could have more space. isnt that what british and spain and germany done.
    there are ways to utilise this population. for good. look. the whole of middle east is being built by indian labour. why dont we build big cities in india with the labour. dont we know technology. even the chief technoloby officers are from india or china in middle east along with usa. so why cant we think of ways of doing something.

  27. Galeo Rhinus
    December 11, 2010 at 10:45 pm

    AFOYB – >>India is far from being an Indic polity… so? My objection is to your comments – not my expectations from India.

    >>Role of the “state.” The word “state” itself has little meaning in Indic polity – but to answer your question – the primary responsibility is Defense. Defending a system that allows people to work towards their own welfare.

  1. No trackbacks yet.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: