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Pearls of Wisdom: US Economist On Indian Education


The silliest India commentary comes from Indians in the West. Usually. Exceptions apart.

Indian education system has been a matter of interest for the last 10 years at least. (Cartoon by Stuart Carlson, 2005).

Indian education system has been a matter of interest for the last 10 years at least. (Cartoon by Stuart Carlson, 2005).

The failure of the Indian education system must count as the Indian government’s greatest failure. Over 90 per cent of students drop out of school by the 12th grade; only 6 per cent go on to tertiary education, to cite just one dismal statistic. (via Swiping without reading – Indian Express).

Amusing

Cut your nose, to spite your face.

A product of Indian education system, at least partially, Atanu Dey lacks the grace to admit his debt. Even if he lacks the grace, he must be honest to admit his ignorance and /or expertise. Atanu Dey, by implication, is implying that other State education systems are better.

For instance, that of the USA.

Which is simply not a fact. At least from 1983, during the time President Reagan, the state of the US education system has been a matter of great concern. And if he not implying that, he must state how things are equally bad in the rest of the world.

Why just pick on India.

This may not quite be the State of US Education - but only an anecdote.

This may not quite be the State of US Education - but only an anecdote.

Numbers talk

Another angle.

Remember the US is dealing with around 50 million children in the US school system.

And India?

Dealing with 500 million of chidren, is the task that the Indian education system has to handle.

US is the largest economy  of the world. India is 10% of the US economy (in nominal terms). Little more actually.

So, we are talking of a 1000% bigger task with 10% of the GDP. Roughly. Exact numbers will be somewhat different.

Size matters – in case Atanu Dey forgets.

Interestingly, there are some 500 Indian teacher’s in Japan, teaching children, using methods that the Japanese want to learn.

From Indian teachers.

What Atanu Dey does not know or forgets

The issues with Indian education are really the use of English language in higher education. English language closes doors to higher education, for all native language users – which is roughly 90% of India.

The other related question is how long will the dominance of English language last? What after that. Now, these are questions that Atanu Dey should ask and answer.

Being an economist?

vUS education is 'blinkered' seems to be the popular opinion. (Cartoonist - David Horsey; 2008 cartoon). Click for larger image.

US education is 'blinkered' seems to be the popular opinion. (Cartoonist - David Horsey; 2008 cartoon). Click for larger image.

I am not forgetting

The real issue is the delivery model for education that the world must adopt.

The answer, my friend (figure of speech!) is what Shri (Sir) Philip Hartog, Vice Chancellor of Dhaka University (then Dacca) learnt from Gandhiji.

Something that research by Dharampal confirmed – and of late, a British researcher discovered again.

Indian private sector education model is the best.

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  1. October 8, 2011 at 6:09 pm

  2. Murli
    October 8, 2011 at 6:31 pm

    “The issues with Indian education are really the use of English language in higher education.” That is all? Are you kidding me? And then you conflate the state of Indian education today to the one described by Dharampal — before the Brits dismantled it. And finally assert, with no evidence, that Indian private sector education is best (compared to what?).

    This is analysis? I usually enjoy your commentary, but this one is way below your usual standard.

  3. October 8, 2011 at 6:39 pm
    Links, Murali.

    Links are the blue lettered text. If 2ndlook commentary, in bold blue letters.

    Click on the links, where ever you want more stuff.

    These statements are extracts from entire posts in the past – and linked in this post.

  4. Nagaraj
    October 9, 2011 at 4:10 am

    Atanu’s article does not focus on the merits or demerits of the “Indian private education sector model” or whether “other State education systems are better”. It is also not a criticism of the Indian education system as one of tweets mentions. The focus of that article is on flawed government policies that continue to be the cause of the large scale illiteracy in India.

    As an aside, you highlight language barrier as one of the problems in access to higher education. while completely stepping aside the issues with access to primary education. Is not 90% of children dropping out of school before 12th grade a bigger problem than lack of access to higher education?

  5. October 9, 2011 at 5:34 am

    Atanu’s article does not focus on the merits or demerits of the “Indian private education sector model” or whether “other State education systems are better”.

    Atanu says –

    Our focus has to be on the urgent and important matter of education. The government has a critical role to play, which is to provide the regulatory environment for needed massive investment by the private sector.

    If he wants to talk about Indian education, should he not talk about this? This is the real debate – in my opinion.

    The focus of that article is on flawed government policies that continue

    Can there be a ‘correct’ Government education policy at all?

    Usually, Government policy means indoctrination and brain-washing. Comes back to point 1.

    Please refer above quote. What do you think the article is about? Atanu has told us what the article is about.

    If the post is about flawed government policies and illiteracy in India, look at the occurence of the word. Government is the focus of his post (used 15 times), education used (8 times), policy /policies (6 times) illiteracy (5 times), flawed only once.

    So, this Great American economist, who speaks of Free Markets (an oxymoron) sees a great role for the Government in education. Bit of a contradiction? Why this Great Enthusiast for Free Markets cannot see the Government out of education?

    to be the cause of the large scale illiteracy in India.

    The definition of illiteracy itself is suspect. My mother cannot read or write in English – beyond the alphabet. She devours Hindi books – and yet she calls herself illiterate. This is Government policy for you. Which the Great American economist Atanu Dey does not address – or possibly even know.

    Is not 90% of children dropping out of school before 12th grade a bigger problem than lack of access to higher education?

    Would you send your child to Indian language school – knowing fully well, that higher education will hit a dead end.

    Will you send your child to an English medium school knowing no one in the village, community or your social circle speaks reads, writes, speaks, uses English?

    completely stepping aside the issues with access to primary education.

    Extracts from the post where I address the access to education problem.

    Remember the US is dealing with around 50 million children in the US school system. And India? Dealing with 500 million of chidren, is the task that the Indian education system has to handle. US is the largest economy of the world. India is 10% of the US economy (in nominal terms). Little more actually. So, we are talking of a 1000% bigger task with 10% of the GDP. Roughly. Exact numbers will be somewhat different.

    The answer, my friend (figure of speech!) is what Shri (Sir) Philip Hartog, Vice Chancellor of Dhaka University (then Dacca) learnt from Gandhiji. Something that research by Dharampal confirmed – and of late, a British researcher discovered again. Indian private sector education model is the best.

    Nagaraj – You are not talking of what you think.

    I have read Atanu’s article. Why are you trying to tell me what the article is about? I know what it is. Rehash of out-dated Western ideas on India. Most of the West has already abandoned these measures and thinking – except World Bank and IMF.

    Atanu acolyte. I suspect. Do I suspect correctly?

  6. October 9, 2011 at 6:28 am

    Read your article and also the comments and answer to them. But, I am not still satisfied with your points. I would like to articulate my ideas (adding Atanu’s and yours idea) in below words
    “The govt. must concentrate on providing Basic education (and facilities?) to its citizens; all the higher education (and other facilities also) should be left to private sectors which will provide them according to market demands. The only role of govt. in all non-basic amenities and any & every goods/service sector should be limited to policy definition (TRAI/SEBI etc).”

    Coming back to Atanu’s article, the main concern ‘She’ raised in her article was economically non viable nature of this govt. initiative. The points I remember are: –

    1. Unnecessary heavy subsidizing the product which will cost heavily on exchequer and thus public.
    2. While the scheme grabbed headline, the actual consumers from the targeted lot are very less.
    3. This may lead to another entitlement based corruption between govt. and those favored entitled private players.
    4. The money spent (wasted) here could be used to support many other similar primary needs of the citizens.
    5. No social/technological impact through this ‘initiative’ which will have high ‘financial’ impact on us.

    Also, I don’t think that she showed inclination towards english education, so please don’t attribute this to her. The primary education system will anyways take care of literacy in regional language while for higher education we (you and me) are of the opinion to dissociate it from govt. and hand it to private sector who may decide according to market need.

    I am of the opinion that Atanu is on the same page with you as you both agree on minimum governance (Although she is limited to economics only while your views are for whole system.).

  7. October 9, 2011 at 7:21 am
    गेहुं के साथ घुन

    1. If you want the State in education you will get all this. Atanu wants the Government to play a role. So take it on the chin.

    2. If the Government does not introduce technology, the Government is

    – Slow
    – Backward
    – Technologically-challenged
    – Risk-averse
    – Bullock cart age

    and plenty of others adjectives.

    3. If the Government takes risks and does something ‘different’ it is

    – attacked
    – without balance in the debate
    – in a partisan manner

    4. If the BJP National Executive does this, it is acceptable. Their job is to be Partisan.

    5.
    But for an American Economist sitting in UCB, he better shape up if he wants to debate. He cites a figure of billions of dollars. No maths. Out of empty air.

    6.
    As I understand

    – This thingee is manufactured in China.
    – Imports will happen after the first lot, on the basis of market trends.
    – The first lot is not too big (100,000 is what the Datawind MD says – TOI)

    7. Some numbers

    – Forget billions of dollars that Atanu throws around.
    – Take one billion dollar = Rs.5000 cr.
    – Assuming a Rs.2000 subsidy., a US$ 1 billion subsidy means some 25 million units. (errata – 25 million units is the correct 50 million is the global sales figure.)

    8. Now come to reality

    – In the last two years, the total number of tablets sold in India was less than 160,000.
    – Global tablet sales last year were less than 18 mill – gartner /WSJ estimates. (http://goo.gl/IcDmn)
    – 2011 global sales expected at little over 50 million as per IDC.(http://goo.gl/Q2Gec)

    9. The tough part

    – Apple had more than 70% market share.
    – We are talking of less than 3 million non-Apple tablets sold last year
    – And Atanu wants to tell me that India will buy 25 million?

    10.
    And if it happens, why look at it negatively?

    11.
    Indians buy 25 million tablets, India will leap-frog the world in tablet usage – and we may have a second software revolution. Good for us. Why not see it in a balanced manner.

    “The govt. must concentrate on providing Basic education (and facilities?) to its citizens; all the higher education (and other facilities also) should be left to private sectors which will provide them according to market demands. The only role of govt. in all non-basic amenities and any & every goods/service sector should be limited to policy definition (TRAI/SEBI etc).”

    I disagree – but if there is consensus, the general debate cannot be partisan and imbalanced.

  8. October 9, 2011 at 7:46 am

    a misguided blog post missing the point altogether.atanu’s point was that the tablets sibal is producing is coming at the expense of the poor.atanu,from what i have read his articles,is not pro (any)state education. it is a criticism of the waste of poor people’s money on things like tablets.these tablets are paid for by printing presses/inflation which rob the poorest of the poor who will neither buy these tablets not have any use of them.it is a subsidy paid by the poor for the students who can afford higher education.english or indian language education is immaterial and irrelevant in this debate.

  9. October 9, 2011 at 7:49 am

    my point is,rare is the fellow who is going to advocate zero state interference in education in india.it is so pervasive and wasteful that everyone assumes it is necessary.given this situation,atanu’s article only pleads for the wastage to be stemmed.

  10. Em
    October 9, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    http://www.typewriterguerilla.com/2011/07/alternatives-to-current-ancient-university-pedagogy/

    Claude Alvares on the Western education model we have imported and don’t know what to do with.

  11. October 9, 2011 at 3:36 pm
    Let us be clear. Western model of ‘education’ achieves exactly what it aims for. It is not ineffective or inefficient.

    Western style education:

    1. Creates a large technology base – Based on research research by patronage and funding. The last 100 years of technology overdrive has culminated in a situation of global overcapacity, pollution on an unprecedented scale – to ensure that we get a car with a new headlamp and door design.

    2. Produces Millions of skilled people – Dependent on Employment. Ideal to serve interests of the 5000-25000 people who control the economy and society.

    3. Creates stupendous amounts of dialogue – We live in the most over-communicated society in the history of mankind. Which in Sanskrit is correctly called maya. What is maya? US with more than 30 secret service agencies and 70 lakh (7 million) people in prison, parole or probation is the leader of the Free World.

    The correct question is – Is this what we want?

  12. October 9, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    technology has created global overcapacity? weird.thanks but not thanks.i dont want a bharat tantra if it doesnt have a place for technology.
    your marxist ,class warfare based arguments make no case for indic systems .
    the secret service and prisons are not caused by technology.it is by the overactive state

    this is absolutely the most disapointing blog post i’ve ever read.

  13. October 9, 2011 at 9:13 pm
    Pravin –

    Good news first. You think this is

    absolutely the most disapointing blog post i’ve ever read

    Thanks. Coz I have written worse, and I know it. But you are too kind.

    dont want a bharat tantra if it doesnt have a place for technology.

    Dont worry your head about things that you dont want.

    Worry about you want want. Be careful, of what you want. Becoz most people get what they want. Dont regret your choice, after you get it.

    Bharattantra and technology

    At Mohenjodaro, was found a figurine, with nearly 10% nickel content. Much more than naturally occurring, Then 2000 years ago, coins in the Takshashila region, by the thousands, made by Greek coinmakers using cupro-nickel alloys started turning up. No action for the next 1700 years. Creating a cupro nickel alloy in modern West started about 200-150 years ago. (1751 is when it was isolated and identified by modern technology.).

    Rust resist steel has been available for more than 2000 years. Zinc smelting has been Indian monopoly for centuries. As was diamond cutting.

    So, Bharattantra and technology model is not the silly overcapacity-over-pollute type.

    One some other points.

    1. Keep your comments in one window and read the Indian Express post again.

    2. This post in Indian Express suggests a significant role for the Government.

    3. It takes one tweet to say Akash Tablet program is a waste of money, Kapil Sibal. Dont do it. Does not take 1000 words.

    rare is the fellow who is going to advocate zero state interference in education in india.it is so pervasive and wasteful that everyone assumes it is necessary.given this situation,atanu’s article only pleads for the wastage to be stemmed.


    4.
    The article cannot start with hosannas to ‘Free’ market, end with hallelujahs to ‘Free’ market – and in the middle talk about Government intervention.

    5. Usually, the word used to describe this kind of split-thinking is schizophrenic. Or running with the hares and hunting with the hounds.

    State interference is pervasive and wasteful in India

    When you say State interference is pervasive and wasteful in India, you imply it is not so in other economies or other parts of the world.

    Any data or just an assertion?

    If you are not comparing India to any other country, are you holding Indian administration hostage to a blank cheque of your expectations, without data, standards or benchmarks? If you have measures or data, please state so?

    the secret service and prisons are not caused by technology.it is by the overactive state

    All that high tech snooping is just happening without technology. What of DoD, NASA, DoS funding of research projects? The entire US academia drools over (like the rest of the world) for State funding. And you mean technology generation has nothing to do with an overactive state.

    An overactive State that you want to meddle in education – is also the same State that you want to abstain somewhere else. How will the State know
    – Where you want them to act
    – What to abstain from?

    The State has Two choices.

    Telepathy.

    Or daily consultation with you and Atanu?

    the tablets sibal is producing is coming at the expense of the poor.

    Refer to comment No.7 above.

    atanu,from what i have read his articles,is not pro (any)state education. it is a criticism of the waste of poor people’s money on things like tablets.these tablets are paid for by printing presses/inflation which rob the poorest of the poor who will neither buy these tablets not have any use of them.it is a subsidy paid by the poor for the students who can afford higher education.

    Refer to Comment No.7

    english or indian language education is immaterial and irrelevant in this debate.

    Refer to Comment No.7

  14. October 10, 2011 at 5:09 pm

    The problem is not with technology but Mass production. Indian culture has always been about ULTRA localization and decentralization. What the desert bloc has done is to choose the template of religion (chritianity) and apply it to every damn thing. This template is – centralization, universalization and control (from macro to micro level)Now the state resembles Church, Paradigms that drive technology and industry is also derived from that template – Universalization = Globalization

  15. October 10, 2011 at 6:03 pm
    Perfect – except that religion also follows the Template.

    Church,State, Party, King, Corporation, Mafia – all follow the Template. Religion is also a Tool for the Elite.

  16. October 10, 2011 at 6:10 pm

    Another interesting thing is these desert bloc guys also saw religions everywhere! They saw hinduism, buddhism, jainism…in India where none existed. They saw Egyptian religion, Inca religion, Maya religion, Native american religions, African religions….They codified where no code existed, they unified where no unity existed…

  17. October 10, 2011 at 6:35 pm
    I am lost for words. This is so good.

    Actually this is logical. Like the idiom goes. Never argue with an idiot. First he brings you down to his level. Then he beats you with his experience. Same case with religion.

  18. October 12, 2011 at 5:46 am

    Sunil :

    The problem is not with technology but Mass production. Indian culture has always been about ULTRA localization and decentralization. What the desert bloc has done is to choose the template of religion (chritianity) and apply it to every damn thing. This template is – centralization, universalization and control (from macro to micro level)Now the state resembles Church, Paradigms that drive technology and industry is also derived from that

    template – Universalization = Globalization

    this is beyond belief.you want decentralization but no mass production? without mass production,most of us would live in poverty.
    what is decentralized and localized is “knowledge”.there is no one big PLAN.division of labour is what allows mass production.do you want to produce your own food,sew your own clothes,make your own houses and write your own novels and create your own music and dig for your own oil? you’d be mired in utter poverty.human beings are able to access products PER DAY which would take 1000 years to make on their own,were it not for the ability to exchange and trade and produce for the masses.

  19. October 12, 2011 at 6:00 am

    er,no.i am all for a complete private and profit oriented and philanthropy funded education system.since we havent even accepted that profits are a good idea in the indian system of today,your ideal utopia is much harder sell to most of indians today.you dont have to convince me,you are preaching to the choir here.

  20. October 12, 2011 at 9:57 am

    …….
    …………..
    ………….Is not 90% of children dropping out of school before 12th grade a bigger problem than lack of access to higher education?

    Actually this is a blessing in disguise.. there are 750 industrial clusters in india, as per statistics from SJM. All these are because of uneducated or partially educated..
    The percentage of degree holders, starting new business, is almost nil, with few exceptions..

    On the other hand, it is these school drop outs, who entrepreneur.. but there is no management courses custom built for their small scale business.. MBAs are only meant for corporates.. degrees are meant only to produce sanitised brains, fit for clerical jobs..

    I wish, the old model of literacy at school, education from jaathi be introduced.. let a student learn from school up to 5th standard.. and then go back to their jaathi or family business, or family profession to learn practically..

    or let there be a sandwiched education.. where industry will take care of higher education as per their requirement..

    but the basic need of the hour is that education be rescued from the government totalatarian and monopoly..

  21. October 12, 2011 at 10:20 am
    I disagree. India cannot go back.

    We have to go forward. Surely, we do not need to reinvent the wheel. Indian education too must change.

    The greatest example I can think of is software education. Was there a template? Did any one plan? The market saw the need, created infrastructure, built the product and delivered. India’s private sector education system has built the largest programming pool in the world.

    When Narayanamurthy talks of quality of IIT students the whole twitterati chatteratti vote on this statement. Right or wrong.

    No one talks of how IITs are useless for India. A small percentage of these IIT grads finally work in India in technical areas – Less than 10%, (my estimate.).

    What do they do? They become IIM grads, become general managers, or go abroad – and talk contemptuously about India.

    This whole thing is hoax.

    We should immediately change IITs to local languages. Let IIT-Guindy teach in Tamil, Kanpur in Hindi etc.

    These grads will then stay in India.

  22. October 12, 2011 at 10:29 am

    er,no.i am all for a complete private and profit oriented and philanthropy funded education system … your ideal utopia is much harder sell to most of indians today

    Do I detect the Lazy Salesman Syndrome? Good salesmen get turned on by the difficulty of the sale. Lazy salesmen sell inferior products, to ignorant consumers. Is that your model Pravin?

  23. October 12, 2011 at 10:35 am

    this is beyond belief.you want decentralization but no mass production? without mass production,most of us would live in poverty.
    what is decentralized and localized is “knowledge”.there is no one big PLAN.division of labour is what allows mass production.do you want to produce your own food,sew your own clothes,make your own houses and write your own novels and create your own music and dig for your own oil? you’d be mired in utter poverty.human beings are able to access products PER DAY which would take 1000 years to make on their own,were it not for the ability to exchange and trade and produce for the masses.

    Your comment perfect explains the fundamental flaw in indian thinking.. when there is no mass production, you assume, that every individual is left to fend for himself.. here comes the illusion arising from lack of bharatheeya political structure..

    The concept of grama, as basic unit of civilization is the base of decentralisation and localisation of power and economy.. a grama is NOT a village as perceived in the west. In webster’s dictionary (till 1830s), a village is being defined as uncivilised.. that may be true for the west, but not for indian gramas..

    Indians educated in western model, sees every indian context from western perspective.. like seeing shudras as slaves etc..

    A grama is a well defined geographical entity.. every grama is designed as per agama and vasthu.. the boundaries are fixed, based on catchment area (& contours & slopes), in such a way, that water from rain gets collected in to the centre of the gram.. There will be always a common temple, most probably, near the pond or lake.. there will be burial ground, fixed near the lake, for giving thithis to forefathers (as we need water for that)..

    In tamilnadu gramams, a border will be fixed on four directions, with ellai deivam (border gods) installed there.. we could see these in all gramams unaffected by urbanisation & land mafias..

    the houses and settlements are always made in upper reaches of the slopes, so that water doesnt clog in the settlements.. there will be separate streets for each sections of the grama..

    On the social front, every jaathi has a role in the gram.. the farmer jathi usually administers the village (as they are land holders).. other jathis have their own profession, as their asset.. every jathi have a role, and all jathis are interdependant..

    Life style of a gramam:
    —————————

    The farmers usually oversee farming operations.. the carpenters produce furnitures.. blacksmith produce tools for farmers.. the potter produce mud vessels.. the upadhyay teaches.. the brahmins maintain temples, and assist farmers with panchanga dates for planting crops.. so as every other jathi will have a role there..
    and at a village level, all are inter dependant on one another..

    Many often wonder at the Hindu civilization’s ability to raise, like phoenix.. but they never recognize the fact, that it is these gramas as a fundamental units, which enabled new hindu empires to raise from ashes..

    When existing empire is destroyed, the people there will disperse to the gramams in the interior, and re-assemble when any other king forms an empire..
    when bukka raya, formed the vijayanagara capital, where does people come from? The self-sustaining, self-administering grama served as the base..

    The mughals, themselves displaced only large empires, but never dared to touch the gramams, as these are the life line for the survival of empires..

    But the English East India Company, were NOT the rulers here.. they were merchants.. and they started dislodging each and every village.. reason, all the gramams are independant.. and when they are independant and self-sustaining, how can the east india company do trading?

    Worst is the fact, that the independnant indian government systematically destroyed all villages so far..

    And today, people like PRavin are filled with insecurity, when talking of decentralisation..

  24. October 12, 2011 at 5:38 pm

    this is beyond belief.you want decentralization but no mass production? without mass production,most of us would live in poverty.
    what is decentralized and localized is “knowledge”.there is no one big PLAN.division of labour is what allows mass production.do you want to produce your own food,sew your own clothes,make your own houses and write your own novels and create your own music and dig for your own oil? you’d be mired in utter poverty.human beings are able to access products PER DAY which would take 1000 years to make on their own,were it not for the ability to exchange and trade and produce for the masses.

    You seem to forget mass production is a historically recent phenomenon but man has been rich or poor for eons! You also seem to be caricaturing localization. Localization means production and consumption in an area is self-sustained to the maximum. Mark my words, this is going to be the disruptive paradigm of the future. Mass producers of the world will either wither away or will have to adapt.

  25. October 12, 2011 at 5:45 pm

    senthil,
    .i am the biggest decentralization proponent you may ever see.
    your concept of self sufficiency is a path to utter ruination.infact the whole concept of ‘self sufficiency’ is economically meaningless.each one of us is completely dependent on others-strangers even.
    all of us are indeed ‘fending’ for ourselves if we try to be self sufficient.only by co-operation with others do we get wealthier.this co-operation with strangers is what ensures our survival

    you are just being a pyromaniac in a field of strawmen

  26. October 12, 2011 at 5:48 pm

    Anuraag Sanghi :

    er,no.i am all for a complete private and profit oriented and philanthropy funded education system … your ideal utopia is much harder sell to most of indians today

    Do I detect the Lazy Salesman Syndrome? Good salesmen get turned on by the difficulty of the sale. Lazy salesmen sell inferior products, to ignorant consumers. Is that your model Pravin?

    given your defense of nehru from time to time,pot-kettle-black

  27. November 22, 2011 at 4:42 am

    Current education industry is developed so the financial geniuses can multiply their wealth without working as hard.

    The role of education in development of the self, the family, the village, the country is NOT the intended goal.

    e.g. if I want to build a large(st) oil refinery, I’d also build a petroleum university.

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